Dr Prince Augustin, Executive Vice President - Group Human Capital & Leadership Development at the Mahindra Group, a post-graduate MBA in Human Resources from Symbiosis Institute of Business Management in Pune, who also holds a graduate degree in Law, specialising in Labour Law from the Government Law College, Mumbai and a Doctorate in Management from BITS Mesra, Ranchi, has over three decades of experience in the field of Human Resources. Prince has been associated with leading companies such as the Associated Cement Companies Limited and Castrol India Ltd, in the past, before joining the Mahindra Group in August 2003. He is intelligent, affable and completely down-to-earth. Dr Prince and his wife Caroline,an academician, now into social service, make for a vibrant couple. As different as they are as chalk and cheese, their chemistry is evident. They complement each other's strengths and support in each other's struggles, and show by example what a good marriage is all about. Caroline, fondly known as Carol, former teacher and school principal, is warm, soft-spoken and cheerful. Their home is beautifully done up by Carol. Her aesthetic sense reflects in the paintings and sketches and visual appeal. In an in-depth and insightful interview with Corporate Citizen, Prince and Caroline take us through their early days of marriage, struggles, challenges, journey of life, bringing up children and so on. Read on...
Says Carol, "It was an arranged marriage. A friend of mine who happened to be Prince's cousin took the initiative to get us together." While Prince is not from Mumbai, Carol is born and brought up in the financial capital. The couple first met in 1986. "Though we met in 1986, at that point in time, he wasn't ready to get married due to family commitments, so the proposal just fizzled out. But after three years, in 1989, once again the proposal came by. I was still unmarried then and things moved ahead(laughs). My mother somehow had this intuition that he is the one for me. Well, was Prince ready to tie the knot then? "Yes, I was. I was planning to settle down so decided to go ahead," says Prince.
Today, it's 26 years since this charming couple got married. Well, it was all destiny. They were destined to be with each other.
What was their experience like? Says Carol, "Not an easy one. It's been a roller coaster ride, with ups and downs, highs and lows, exciting and not-so-exciting moments in our relationship. Sometimes he is unpredictable. Initially I found it quite challenging, but then I decided to take it one step at a time and move ahead... and I survived...(laughs)."
The couple courted each other for six months after the engagement before they tied the knot, when they would occasionally meet up for movies or lunch/dinner (remember, there were no malls then). "We couldn't afford a car, so we often used public transport. He did have a two-wheeler, but I wasn't too comfortable with it. So we would travel by cabs or autos."
'The mindset in families, organisations and society has to be different because every generation creates a new mindset. This is the generation of freedom and passion; earlier it was commitment and living life, and before that it was all about making life'
Recalls Prince, "Mumbai was definitely not the place I wanted to settle down. Life is not easy here. It's crowded. I used to live with my aunt then, despite having company accommodation. At that point in time, I thought of moving out of Mumbai but my career brought me here."
There was an incident after which he decided to stay back. "There was a time when I was so fed up of Mumbai that I decided to move out of the city, to join another large organisation in a different city, and boarded the train at CST. But then, something struck me... I thought to myself... What would I do in a remote location... away from the comfort of family? Immediately, I got down at Dadar station and came back to my aunt's place," laughs Prince.
"Later I started working with ACC Ltd. After six to eight months I went to join the Jamul plant in Madhya Pradesh, near Bhilai. We had the best cement plant then. After a year and a half, I got transferred back to the corporate office. Initially, travelling in Mumbai was quite painful and tedious. But then Mumbai has a way of catching up to you. You make friends, have a social circle and then life becomes better," adds Prince.
"When you start your career, life is difficult. You don't have a vehicle, you do everything on your own... you are an individual contributor but after a period of four to five years, when you do have people helping you, people working for you, things become different. You can then plan the way ahead. As you grow higher, your responsibilities increase and you grow," says Prince.
'I am not too social in nature so I am not on Facebook or Twitter or any of the social media platforms. I feel my life is very personal and I am quite happy with the number of friends I have... and I don't really feel like going out and making more friends or trying to connect with people I've not been in touch with' _ CAROL
Talking about some of the qualities that the couple admire about each other, says Prince, "What I like about my better half is that she is a much organised person. She knows how to prioritise things. Since the time we got married, given my tight work schedule, I've never had to look into things besides work. When I reach work, I tend to forget home and when I am home, I forget work. She knows how to effectively manage the home and children." Carol notes, "Prince is an organised person as far as work is concerned. So I organise things at home. Wherever I find there are shortcomings from his end, I try to bridge the gap."
Says Carol, "He is headstrong and stands up for people. We complement each other with our diverse strengths. The trust and faith that we have in each other is immense. What I like about him is that he has a mind of his own. He is very upright. I completely support and admire this quality of his. He will stand for justice and fight hard. But yes, sometimes he also fights at the wrong places, for the wrong kind of people(laughs). He is also very committed to whatever he takes up."
"She is very accommodative and helps me think. I have a philosophy---if anyone comes to me for help, I should find a way to help them. Though she does feel that I go overboard, I actually don't... I feel since God has helped me, I have reached a particular position and level and have what I wanted, I should share what I have. One common thing we have is that we are both religious. I also don't have to worry about what happens at home. She will take good care of all the minute details. I do consider myself blessed," says Prince.
"I like to watch movies _ all kinds. I draw lessons from them and often use them in my conversation, my work, and while I facilitate programmes. I also use many scenes from movies, conversations, stories, themes to convey a message and ensure better understanding," says Prince who is also an avid traveller. "I have been to most parts of the world, mostly as part of my work. I also like photography and try my hand at it sometimes," adds Prince. Carol adds, "He likes photography but has never had the time to focus on it and develop the skill. Maybe after retirement he could look at it. I recall... about 15 years back, he had bought a good camera and was keen on developing photography as a hobby but couldn't pursue it."
When asked about Carol's favourite pastime, she laughs, saying, "I am not a movie buff. For him, watching movies, is probably a way of unwinding. It may not be a language that he follows... he can even watch a Bangla or Bhojpuri movie. I prefer to go for a movie only after reading the review and being convinced that it will interest me."
She adds, "I prefer a short movie, not more than 1.5 hours. I don't like to sit for too long to watch a movie. Also, because I was a teacher, I was always on the move. Even at home, I keep walking around. I am fond of live shows, theatre plays and live musical performances. I like to attend these performances often... but yes, he doesn't come along."
While Prince has a very active social life, Carol prefers to have a small circle of friends - her childhood friends with whom she's still in touch, a few of her college friends, and colleagues of all age groups, even much older than her, but on the same wavelength as her.
It's different for Prince. Besides staying in touch with his childhood friends, friends from college and ex-colleagues, Prince travels extensively where he meets a lot of people, and likes to be in touch with them as well. He also has friends in politics and in social service. "I am well networked and well connected and tend to make friends easily." On that Carol says, "He goes out of his way to make friends. Relationships mean a lot to him. He actively participates in family functions and celebrations too, both in and outside Mumbai and sincerely makes it a point to be there."
She has a different outlook. "I don't find the need to expand my social circle, I am quite content with myself. Even if I have to go for a movie, I can go alone. I can go seeing places on my own," says Carol. "I like to visit the Jehangir Art Gallery (which he is not aware of ) and go to Delhi Darbar and have my biryani there. I still remember once when he had called, I told him that I just had biryani at Delhi Darbar and was visiting the Jehangir Art Gallery. He wondered what interested me there," she laughs aloud, adding that these are some of the differences in their interests and she is happy doing it alone. "I don't really need a friend or my spouse to come along," says she.
Prince is quite social media-savvy, and active on Facebook and Twitter. "I do stay in touch with people also because I have to ensure that our company brand has been positioned appropriately. I take care to see the kind of communication that happens, and the way the message reaches the people. I am not very Twitter savvy but I am active on Facebook," he says.
Says Carol, "I am not too social in nature so I am not on Facebook or Twitter or any of the social media platforms. I feel my life is very personal and I am quite happy with the number of friends I have... and I don't really feel like going out and making more friends or trying to connect with people I've not been in touch with. I am in a limited number of WhatsApp groups with like-minded friends."
'When you start your career, life is difficult. You don't have a vehicle, you do everything on your own... you are an individual contributor but after a period of four to five years, when you do have people helping you, people working for you, things become different' _ PRINCE
"I was never career-oriented. I was always fond of kids. At one stage, I also wanted to do Home Science. But later I decided to take up teaching so that I could manage home as well. I also wanted to have a weekly off (Thursday) in addition to a Sunday, along with the two month-break that we get. I was never keen on taking up a corporate job. By taking up teaching as a career, I was able to manage both ends pretty well."
Carol worked with Our Lady of Perpetual Succour High School (OLPS School) in Chembur, Mumbai for 25 years. "Frankly, not even in my wildest dreams did I imagine I would work for so long. After completing my Bachelor in Education (B.Ed.), I went on to teach in a residential school in Mount Abu, along with two of my batchmates, for about two semesters. On coming back I joined OLPS... and well, like they say, the rest is history (laughs)."
Carol was promoted as principal of the school in 2007, when she was just 43 years old. She was the youngest principal of the institution. While Carol was not keen on taking up the post of the Principal, the encouragement of Prince and his mother helped Carol take up the challenge "My mother-in-law had visualised me as the principal ten years even before I took over as one. She used to be very proud of me." Carol opted for VRS (Voluntary Retirement Scheme) in 2013. "The school management was not keen on leaving me as I still had nine years to officially retire at 58."
"Since I had no administrative experience whatsoever, I was a bit apprehensive taking up this position. I had supportive managers (the priests) for support. Being an aided school, it had some kind of Government control. We also had some demands from the Government. I had to connect with education department officials, face their demands for admissions and recruitment of staff, as well as handle complaints from parents on various issues. So from being a teacher where I only had to teach, suddenly I was accountable for over 3,000 children, and about 100 staff members," recalls Carol.
"When I took over as the principal, our son had just finished school and daughter had finished her second standard." Prince and Carol have two children, Jonathan, born in 1991, and Juanita, born in 1998. "My mom-in-law was a huge support. There were many tasks which I would do at home, taken over by her so that I didn't have to worry about them. She made sure I didn't have anything to attend to when I came home from work. Once I became the principal, there were many responsibilities. As a teacher, I would generally be home by 1.30 pm, but after taking over as the principal, I used to work long hours. I had to wait after school hours for meetings with staff, with education officials, so my mom-in-law had to look after the children at home. By the time I decided to take voluntary retirement, my son had grown up and could take care of himself," says Carol.
Says Carol, "Our children are like others, of the present generation. Extremely tech-savvy and brand conscious, while I am technologically challenged (laughs)."
Prince follows, "I couldn't spend much time with my children when they were very young, as my job entailed a lot of travelling. My mother took very good care of them then. But I like what they like... watching movies, visiting places and so on."
He adds, "My children are very different from each other. Jonathan is more fun-loving and happy-go-lucky, he takes life as it comes. He wants to be a film maker. Juanita is serious, studious and committed. She wants to be a lawyer. They have been given a lot of freedom."
Carol chips in, "Yes, while they have the freedom, and we support them in what they want to do, there are restrictions too. I am a disciplinarian. It is not entirely true that Prince did not spend time with them, because when Jonathan was small, Prince would take him cycling, or a drive post-dinner. He would even take our son to watch the buff aloes at the 'tabela' after getting back home in the evening. But when Juanita was small, he didn't have much time, he was re-ally caught up with work. He had climbed up the corporate ladder then, so was busy. Also, Juanita was not interested in these kind of things."
She adds, "He started connecting with them only when he could talk to them, especially with Jonathan, as he grew up... and then they would have a man-to-man conversation. He couldn't indulge in baby talk, or pampering... he is not that type. So he couldn't connect with them when they were small. I would take them out for their swimming lessons and other activities. You won't believe, Juanita visited Juhu beach only when she was in the eighth or ninth standard. She was more exposed to the beaches abroad. She started travelling when she was just four months old. I still remember, Jonathan would hit the beach, play in the mud and get dirty, but Juanita didn't like doing anything of that sort. Even as children, they never fought with each other. Given the age difference -- almost eight years -- he would carry her around like a child till the time she was in the third standard. She would always say 'chetta chetta, carry me' (chetta is 'elder brother' in Malayalam). He would call her his baby."
Interestingly, Juanita is more attached to her mother. "Generally you find the daughter more attached to the father, but here it is not(laughs). But they are both attached to me. I connect well with them."
"Carol," says Prince, smiling. "Of course, I do consult him," smiles Carol. "There are times when I have to take a call on certain things and he is not around. But when I goof up...I had it," laughs Carol. "Now he is mellowing down, not mellowed down, but trying to mellow down..."
When asked about Prince's nature, whether he is short-tempered, he says, "I am not short-tempered." Counters Carol, "He does have a temper."
"He is a perfectionist where work is concerned... he is very demanding," says Carol.
"When I plan something, it has to happen, come what may," says Prince.
"Well that's the case at work as well as home," notes Carol. "If he decides to do something, it has to be done," laughs Carol.
"There is a huge difference. In those days, come what may, children were more respectful and they knew that they needed a teacher. Today, they feel they don't need a teacher, maybe because of technology. Their relationship with their parents has also changed in a big way. I have had parents of students coming over, complaining about the attitude of their children. I could understand their anguish. With so many years of experience with children and observing them from close quarters, I could sense if the child was going through an emotional trauma or is there any other issue that the parents are not aware of or they needed professional help. In a sense, when I was the principal, I could reach out to a number of students," says Carol.
Jnathan, Prince's elder son, who is into filmmaking, is coming up with his first movie -- The Lift Boy.
Says Jonathan, "I didn't attend any kind of film school as such. I finished my HSC from St Xavier's College, Mumbai and went to the UK to do my Bachelors in Advertising and Marketing, Masters in Advertising and worked there for a while."
He adds, "The Lift Boy will be my first feature film. It's a two-hour film on the lift boy. There are eleven main characters who will all be chosen from Mumbai itself. I am interviewing a few casting directors as of now. Once that part is done, we will pass the cast and then start working on the movie."
The movie is projected to release on the 27 December, 2016. Jonathan and Juanita are both closer to mom than dad.
Says Juanita, who aspires to be a lawyer, "Well, I'm closer to mom. I was very close to my paternal grandma while I was growing."
Juanita is doing her IB at ACS International Singapore, and from there hopes to move to pursue her education at UK.
Talking about the difference in education system in India and Singapore, she says, "Education is far more competitive in Singapore than here in India. You actually have to be completely thorough with your basic concepts there. Here it is more about books and theory while there it is more practical."
"My work timings are quite crazy. The only holiday I take is during Christmas. I work 14-15 hours a day. We work five days a week, but there's always some work on Saturday. During Christmas, I make it a point to take an off for 10-12 days and take my family out," says Prince.
On that Carol notes, "Well, that's mandatory leave(laughs). There was a time when we all had vacations at the same time so we would plan a holiday together."
"We've been taking vacations abroad, the last five or six years. Earlier, they were more in India," adds Prince.
Prince has been associated with the Mahindra Group since the past 14 years and it has been a good innings. "While the company grew, I also grew. My roles kept changing to more strategic ones. I always wanted my ideas to get implemented. People have been very supportive. It's a people's organisation, much diversified, so you can experiment in a very big way... even if you fail, you don't have to fear. You can quickly learn and ensure you don't repeat it. We are particular about the people we hire, I have worked with very good bosses and colleagues. I started working in 1984 and today it's been over three decades. My first ten years were in Industrial Relations, the next ten years were all about change and transformation and in the last ten years I've been into planning, conceptualising and bringing about change. When you grow with the organisation, the emotional connect also grows."
"We got our first car soon after we got married. We got a second-hand Fiat then, taking a company loan. But trust me, it was not easy using the vehicle then. Today, you can't go anywhere without a vehicle." recalls Prince.
Carol adds, "He loves to drive. When we go long distance, Prince is at the wheel and the driver sits behind. Prince enjoys driving."
"In the 1990s when we got our first car, we would only drive in the city. Initially for the first few years, your salary is barely sufficient to keep the home fires burning. After a few years when you climb up the corporate ladder, as your remuneration increases, you can afford a better-quality life," says Prince. He adds, "I even drive down to Kerala while Carol takes a flight. She doesn't like to travel by road. So we meet in Kerala and go around(smiles). It takes just one and a half days and I take my driver along, my brother also joins me. We take turns at driving. The companies I worked for had guest houses everywhere so we would often stop at the guest house and spend the night there. I don't drive after 8 pm. Since travelling is my hobby, I ensure that I see most of the places. As part of my work, I travel a lot... but that's for official work. At times Carol joins me. Carol has travelled and seen most parts of the world. I have seen most parts of the world, but mostly in conference rooms, airports, universities, highways and wherever I travel(laughs). I have never seen much of the countries, perse, except for Switzerland which was a trip for work-cum-leisure, in 1999. That was our first international holiday. Subsequently we started travelling frequently. I travel almost 15 days in a month."
Carol adds, "Now that I am free, I join him for short trips. When he is busy with work, I go out on my own. So we have covered most of the continents, except for South America and Antarctica. I have categorically told him that before he retires, we need to go to South America."
"I have been a people's person right from my school days," says Prince.
Agrees Carol, "HR is the right field for him."
Adds Prince, "I wanted to be a lawyer, so I completed my Law but then it takes long to establish one-self as a lawyer, so I didn't opt for Law as a career. But I still feel I could have done well in Law."
"I completely agree with that bit because my mother-in-law, his brother and Prince are born lawyers, you cannot win an argument with them. So I wasn't surprised when my daughter said she wanted to take up Law. My brother-in-law's daughter is also pursuing Law," smiles Carol.
'Patience, commitment and tolerance are extremely essential for any marriage to work. Marriage is about making an effort. But sadly, today's youngsters lack most of the qualities needed for marriage to work' _ CAROL
"Not always. He does, sometimes," says Carol. "I don't mix work and personal life. I keep them separate. When I leave home, I forget home and when I leave work, I switch off," notes Prince.
"Yeah... he gets so engrossed with his work once he steps out of home, he even forgets if someone's sick at home. But, when my mother-in-law was quite unwell, towards the end, it started affecting him and he found it difficult to focus on his work," says Carol.
"I feel today's youngsters are too selfish and self-centred. Their tolerance level is 'zero'. Patience, commitment and tolerance are extremely essential for any marriage to work. Marriage is about making an effort. But sadly, today's youngsters lack most of the qualities needed for marriage to work. They should understand that there is a divine power to guide them. Seek that help... everything will fall in place. The problem of religious intolerance is because of selfishness and rigidness," says Carol.
According to Prince, youngsters lead a very different life today. "They have a lot of freedom, and their parents provide them everything. They don't need to take up a job. They can follow their passion. They are influenced by the media in a big way, positively or negatively. They have got very self-centred, they don't want to compromise. Their parents have had a tough life and are doing quite well for themselves today. So they provide their children a better life than they had. In my case, I didn't get to choose my career, I happened to choose a role which took me to my destiny."
Adds Prince, "And if things don't go their way, they jump on to something else. Keeping them engaged with a particular set of thoughts is not easy. But if you can get their passion, their commitment, they do much better work. Today the world is connected and you need to be tech savvy. At my workplace, when I get youngsters to work with me, I get them to research, and give them a lot of freedom and space but ensure that there's no monotony. They don't like monotonous jobs today. They like challenges."
"Yes, but challenges on their own terms and conditions," laughs Carol.
"So the mindset in families, organisations and society has to be different because every generation creates a new mindset. This is the generation of freedom and passion; earlier it was commitment and living life, and before that it was all about making life. The world is changing. Technology has made life very comfortable. Travel is comfortable, you aren't exposed to the rigours of the weather. I remember my grandfather would work in the fields, without tractors, under the scorching heat of the sun. They had no diet restrictions and no comforts, but still had a very rich life, unlike today, where it is more stressful, and the environment is more polluted. I can recall my childhood days and the joy I felt in going to my native place and being with my grandfather. But today, when I go to my village, I start feeling hot, only because we have got conditioned to this way of life," says Prince.
"No, I don't believe in live-in relationships. Marriage has some kind of sanctity attached to it. Our faith teaches us that marriage is a sacrament," says Carol, promptly.
Adds Prince, "The world has changed. Each one has the freedom to choose his/her life. I have a set of thoughts which match hers. We believe in the divine power and blessings of God. God has been very kind to us. I had nothing when I started, but today I have everything that I wanted. A lot of people have not been so fortunate..."
"But that has kept us grounded and developed the attitude of gratitude in us," says Carol.
"Live-in relationships are something I don't believe in. You never keep coins with you... but always keep the big notes. For me, marriage is like a big note and live-in relationships are like coins. One can decide for oneself, whether you want to deal with loose coins or deal with the big notes. Today youngsters are not ready for commitment and prefer live-in relationships as a way of expressing their freedom, with no strings attached, no bonds with each other. As values change, the meaning of life also changes," says Prince.
Says Prince, "Earlier, I wasn't so health-conscious. If you want a healthy mind, you ought to follow a healthy lifestyle. Youngsters today are very health-conscious, but they don't check the kind of food they eat. I ensure that I have time to hit the gym, go for a walk, read. Reading is also part of my work. I cannot be in this role if I don't read. I have always loved to read since my childhood days. I liked to read different kinds of books. By the time I was in the fifth standard, I had read all books by Enid Blyton, and by the time I was in the tenth standard, I had finished reading all the series by James Hadley Chase. If you are not contemporary, you get outdated. So I ensure that I upskill myself. A year ago, I got my doctorate and now I am getting certified as an international coach. So I constantly look for new ways of challenging myself. I realised much later that health was something I ought to have focused on, much earlier."
Carol says, "Yes, I am quite health-conscious, but have a weakness for sweets. I don't have a lot of fried foods. I am very particular about what is cooked at home. I prefer organic foods. Though we are non-vegetarians, there is more vegetarian food cooked at home, more vegetables and fruits in the diet."
"I would say that it is only now that we are coming closer. During the last six years of my career as principal, work was hectic and there were many challenging moments both at home and the institution. At that time, Prince stood by me. I used to be highly stressed those days. But now I have time for myself, time for introspection and I am taking life as it comes. So now it's one day at a time. When I am not stressed, I have more time to listen and to share," says Carol.
"Am I right?" Carol questions Prince, laughing.
"Yes... during our early days together, we were both caught up with work. Her work wasn't very hectic but was stressful. She had to manage both home and school. My career was taking off, and I was very career-conscious. I don't know if both the partners can pursue their careers at the same pace. It is not a very easy thing to do. One has to support the other," says Prince.
'You never keep coins with you... but always keep the big notes. For me, marriage is like a big note and live-in relationships are like coins. One can decide for oneself, whether you want to deal with loose coins or deal with the big notes' _ PRINCE
In this era when people in the corporate world are busy backstabbing each other, Prince says, "I have two to three philosophies in life _ I will never backstab a person. Whatever I have to say, I will say straight on the face. It may not be very palatable, but that's the way I am. I was never diplomatic but of late I have become diplomatic. Even if there is politics, I will never be part of it. I say what I think is right. If I am wrong, I will change. You should stand for what you feel, and cannot be different to different people because then you don't have an identity of your own."
Says Carol, "Be honest, truthful and never give up your values, come what may. Stand for your rights and stick to it despite the challenges."
She adds, "Being honest, respectful and reaching out to the needy are values we have grown up with. However, Prince goes a little overboard, and people do take advantage of him. When I sense that, I caution him. It's not always true that people need help, sometimes they also take advantage of your niceness and generosity. Even with the children, I tell him not to indulge them. He has always got the children whatever they have demanded. I don't do it. So when it comes to asking for money or any gadget, they connect with the father because he never says no. I would like them to know the value of money. I am more practical while he is more emotional."
"I am keen on getting into the area of social service. I have recently prepared a presentation on the subject of child sexual abuse. There isn't much awareness in the society on this subject. I want more and more parents to know about this issue so that they can caution their children. So I have plans to take up this subject and work on it," she signs off.
By Mahalakshmi Hariharan
