Education now a Lifelong Journey
An education leader with 40 years of experience in academia, Prof (Dr.) Sandeep Sancheti, Vice President, Research Relations and Academic Affairs, Elsevier India, has been setting higher benchmarks in academic and research domain. For over 17 years he has been in the role of Vice Chancellor in eleven universities and institutions across India. Throughout his four-decade-long illustrious career in academic world, his dynamic leadership has inspired futuristic thought processes and he is a role model across generations.
Among the various roles he has served, include, Director, NITK Surathkal; Director, NIT-Delhi; President, Manipal University Jaipur; President, Association of Indian Universities; VC, SRM IST Chennai; Provost - VC, Marwadi University and is also co-founder of Edorer.
In an exclusive interview with Corporate Citizen, Prof (Dr.) Sancheti, takes us through his career journey, transformative reforms for performance evaluation, assessment and accreditation of universities and colleges in the country; skill development, gender equality in research and innovation, Education Budget 2024, sanctity of the NEET and much more
Corporate Citizen: Take us through your education and career journey. You are a B.Tech engineer from National Institute of Technology (NIT), did MSc in Advanced Electronics, have PhD in High Frequency Communication from Belfast. So, how did you come into academics?
"Quality comes at a cost of time, efforts, investment and everything. But, we are not putting the most important thing called money to get more time, more efforts and more resources from all stakeholders. No one puts efforts without money—it’s a very commercial world"
— Prof (Dr.) Sandeep Sancheti
Sandeep Sancheti: I am an engineer, a doctor, a professor, a Vice-Chancellor, an administrator—everything ends with ‘R’ and there is a commonality. Obviously education requires people with all sorts of educational background, be it from engineering or medicine, it doesn’t matter, one can be an academic leader. And of course, academic leadership is required everywhere.
Why I chose engineering? Basically, my father wanted me to be an engineer. My father and grandfather were both engineers, and even my two sons are engineers. So, in a way engineering is in our DNA. I come from Rajasthan state where 10+2 format of board exam was adopted almost in the end, in the entire country. So, we were not qualified to sit for IIT entrance exams, for which the minimum requirement was 12th board pass, and we were only 11th board pass. As a result, I chose NIT-Warangal, which was one of the best options besides the IIT, and it was the first NIT of the country founded in 1959, which is doing exceedingly well even today. Electronics was a new branch in 1977 when I entered, and people hardly knew what electronics was. There was some interest and curiosity, which is why I took electronics and I was a good performer.
When I graduated in 1982, I was not even 21 years. In my family there were mostly either engineers or Chartered Accountants, and they were all in high profile jobs, AND I was well-versed with their lifestyle and workings. So I decided, I will not do these type of jobs. Which is why, I did not appear for any competitive exams of engineering services, civil services, public sector, banking, insurance, or anything that will give me a work opportunity abroad.
After my graduation, I wanted to be an entrepreneur and 40 years back in 1982, no one gave any significance to someone becoming an entrepreneur, in fact no one knew what entrepreneurship was.
And, to do something as big as entrepreneurship, I cannot be in a small town, so I decided to go to Delhi. Now the question was, Where will I stay in Delhi? How will I survive in Delhi? What will I do in Delhi? I decided to do M.Tech in Electronics from IIT Delhi. I applied for IIT Delhi but due to the snail mail service available at that time, my application did not reach on time, and unfortunately my application was not accepted. I got a chance to do my M.Sc in Advanced Electronics at Delhi College of Engineering, now known as Delhi Technological University (DTU), which was offering B.Sc and M.Sc engineering degrees. The M.Sc engineering is equivalent to todays M.Tech
While doing my Masters, I developed my products, processes, and various other things in two years and earned my degree as well. Simulteanously, I did everything required to realise my entrepreneurial dream. I was ready to launch my product—I had done trial productions, various testing and licensing aspects for the products—what I needed at that stage was money to take it forward. So, I approached some of the financial institutions for investments, but they rejected to finance me. This is when I decided to drop the idea of being an entrepreneur.
Since I had done my Masters and many people in my hometown knew about it, I started getting offers to come into teaching. The institution from where my father graduated, offered me a teaching job. I joined them, and within few months I started loving it—since then my journey has been that of an academician.
CC: When did you start taking leading academic roles?
I became the Director at NITK Surathkal, Mangaluru, in the year 2006, where at that time I was the youngest Director of a national institute in the country. When I left NITK Surathkal in the year 2011, I was still one of the youngest Director. Since then I have spent around 17 years as a Vice-Chancellor of various universities. I was also the youngest President of Association of Indian Universities, one of the oldest academic body of our country. I was also founder President of Manipal University Jaipur. As the Vice Chancellor of India’s biggest stand-alone university, SRM IST Chennai, a non-affiliating private university, it had around 3,250 faculty members when I joined them in 2018. So far, I have headed eight Central Government institutions as a Director.
My current role at Elsevier is more of research, publication and innovation oriented. It’s a company which is into giving insights, connects, partnerships, assessments, impact, and relevance of what you do as research. Once again I have come to a new forum and I am giving shape to my dreams. In 1984, I started my career as a teacher, then served almost 30 years in the government institutions and then for the last 11 years I have been working in the self-financed sector.
CC: Did your VC journey start with SRM IST Chennai?
In India there are four designations for a Vice Chancellor (VC). At IITs, NITs or say IISER Pune, the designation given there is of a Director. They are the authority with same functions and powers as VC, but the nomenclature is different. The second nomenclature is of President (an American designation), the third nomenclature is Vice Chancellor which is most commonly used; and the fourth nomenclature is Provost. These are the four most commonly prevailing designations world over for a Vice Chancellor, and in India also to some extent. I am possibly the only one in the country to have enjoyed all four designations.
CC: Tell us about your entrepreneurial venture, as the co-founder of Edorer.com.
This company is more into edtech spaces, doing a variety of things in verification services, in services of teaching and learning, in terms of crediting and accumulating crediting and so on.
Edorer.com is a US based company, founded four years ago. There is a chief founder, who is driving the company and I as a cofounder add value, and I have a partnership role.
As I said earlier, I started my career journey as a potential entrepreneur and had this entrepreneurial capabilities. So, everything I did in my life, even in the educational institutions I worked with, I have always been an entrepreneur, taken risks and started many new initiatives. I have led many new government schemes (like Academic Bank of Credits) or transformational changes in the institutions I worked for.
"Everything I did in my life, even in the educational institutions I have worked with, I have always been an entrepreneur, taken risks and started many new initiatives. I have led many new government schemes (like Academic Bank of Credits) or transformational changes in the institutions I worked for"
CC: Will the post Covid burst of the edtech bubble in India lead to a more rationalised market in India, with only the most viable, sustainable, competitive, and consumer-centric companies surviving?
For everyone now education is a lifelong journey. After formal education till the age of 25, he/she is likely to undertake lot of education till the age of seventy five. This age group of people cannot fit in the institutional framework, attending classes and learning, because of their age factor. So, edtech will come as a boon for such people. I am 60+ age and if I want to learn, I cannot go and sit in any class. I have to learn on my own possibly and that’s where the edtech comes to my help. So, edtech will be the flavour of time.
However, the edtech operators should know that its unlike other conventional industries. In the edtech business you are mending minds, mending individuals with different expectations, different interests and all that. And therefore, it cannot be the same processes which you see as in a conventional education industry. Calling edtech as an industry will be a misnomer because it doesn’t function like an industry, and conventional educational processes are slow. Google came in 20 years ago and became the world leader and Microsoft did the same in 40 years. But, when it comes to educational torchbearers like Stanford, Harvard and Oxford they have taken more than 200 years to reach where they are now. So, educational processes are slow and some of the edtech companies have not understood these notions. They think that they can suddenly rise like an industry, which is not the case.
It is said that the Covid pandemic lockdown gave a real boost to these edtech companies. But, too much came too fast—it was an unstable domain. It's like you are driving new vehicle and not thorough with its new functions. When you are driving that vehicle at high speed, there are chances of accident, or the vehicle may destabilise or breakdown. So, during the pandemic many edtech companies came and competition was high immediately. The usage patterns and the willingness to pay (WTP) was not known, and obviously since Covid pandemic prolonged, people developed some disinterest towards online for some reasons. It was too much of online and people were getting bored with online, because it was not very interactive.
Everything has value. Today if I have to learn anything I need not sit in a class, I can do it online. I can learn so many things from the world’s best, at my ease, in my language, at my time, in my own framework, go slow go fast, earn a degree, a diploma or a certificate. One can always accumulate credits, and if even credits is not required, I may just learn and enjoy.
For example, in a formal education system today, if I want to enter a university to learn management and if I do not appear for examinations, I will be declared as failed. Now if I don’t want to be a failure and just want to learn, without a degree or credit—for this edtech, distance learning, virtual education, online education will be the preferred choice. Flexible education will remain the flavour. Flexibility means the flexibility of time, space, cost, nature of degree, intensity, level, and cross-connection between different subjects.
So, education is required at all stages of our life and therefore whether it is a contact education or a non-contact education, whether it is offline or online, whether it is physical or non-physical, it doesn’t matter—education is education and therefore it should be promoted and it will be desired or required.
"Today, if I have to learn anything I need not sit in a class, I can do it online. I can learn so many things from the world’s best, at my ease, in my language, at my time, in my own framework, go slow, go fast, earn a degree, a diploma or a certificate"
CC: NAAC accreditation is mandatory for all the higher education institutions such as colleges and universities. But, though edtech companies are involved with higher education, presently they don’t require NAAC accreditation.
NAAC does not control anything called institutions or edtech companies. NAAC only does the accreditation, auditing and evaluations of assessments of what you do, what you are set to do, whether you have achieved it or not, what are your strengths and weaknesses, are you meeting some of the minimum standards and the highest standards of the country or the nation or of international nature and so on. So, it benchmarks you against certain standards. NAAC does not control any edtech companies. However, NAAC takes into account most of the things which will help you deliver quality, whether it is something to do with sustainable development goals or the industries, alumni, the innovation quotient and research. NAAC encompasses broadly seven parameters, under which there are many sub-parameters.
CC: Do you see the new binary accreditation system launched by NAAC as a transformative requirement for the universities?
The new binary accreditation is about to be formally launched, and I am presently leading a sub-committee for that. It has been already announced and the old process will be stopped soon. Under new process people are being acquainted and trained about it. The initial part of the new process is simple, in the sense, it is more to induce people into the accreditation framework. Many of them sit away from accreditation because they think it is not for them. I probably will fail? I don’t know what this whole thing is about? So they are fearful. What we are trying to do is to help them, bring them into the fold and gradually handhold them and then take them to a higher level. That’s the endeavour NAAC is pursuing right now through the binary accreditation system.
The new binary accreditation system is going to be a very useful reform, a transformative reform. There are institutions which have gone into third or fourth cycle also. But then there are a large number of institutions who have not even attempted it. Probably they will come into the new fold.
Quality is something which in initial phases is difficult to achieve in Indian context. Also, quality is sometimes lacking in many product and processes, and so is the case with education. But, now it is the time we have reached a good quantitative growth. We have a good number of institutions, our Gross Enrolment Ratio (GER) is good, so why not improve the quality.
CC: There is still a fear among the universities and colleges of getting away from existing grading system and getting into a new one.
If they are fearful, probably that’s their thought process. If they are fearful, they shouldn’t have touched computers, or the internet, they shouldn’t have done internet banking. Today, can they live without all that? Can they survive without mobile? Life changing experiences will happen—one should be adaptable. To have a fear—then you will be fearful of the next generation also, as they think differently. So, fear is not an answer. This NAAC system is trying to remove that fear. It’s not rocket science, it’s something which you do regularly. Only thing is you have to put the facts together, present it and believe in what you are saying and try to improve it. In that sense it is a very positive approach which NAAC is promoting.
CC: In the Budget 2024, they have mentioned about financial support for loans upto Rs 10 lakh for higher education in domestic institutions and then the paid internship in top companies. How will these schemes help education in India?
I am giving my own views irrespective of what the budget said, because I have not read about it. One of the bane of higher education system is that we are not charging adequate fee. We are mostly running it on dole or charity basis. Top government run institutions try to give education which is of the highest quality in the world or in India. Quality comes at a cost of time, efforts, investment and everything. But, we are not putting the most important thing called money to get more time, more efforts and more resources from all stakeholders. No one puts efforts without money—it’s a very commercial world.
If we don’t have enough money, we will not be able to reach beyond a significant point. There are some of us who are ready to pay 10 times more to go abroad and get the same education. But in India, the moment you raise fees by 1000 rupees, you cry foul. The point is, without money nothing gets done. The rich can afford to go anywhere in the world and get whatever education they want, but those who can't afford obviously need support. And, institutions facing shortage of funds also need support. Course fees should be reasonably charged—anything given free will be wasted and so is the case with education.
In India many go from under-graduation to post-graduation, and get multiple degrees, because they all think it’s all coming more or less for free. But, that’s not good for institutions as they are then required to create physical assets, manpower, teachers, but with no productivity as a likely outcome. So, money should be charged reasonably for whatever you are giving and for those who cannot afford, scholarships should be given or loans should be given, depending on whatever is possible. And, those who are given this support should be made to work in institutions. For example, most of the Indians when they go abroad to study, they work as lab technicians or in the library or help a professor. So, those who are given a loan or scholarship, should also be made to work so that they understand the value of financial support they are given.
"It is said that the Covid pandemic lockdown gave a real boost to these edtech companies. But, too much came too fast—it was an unstable domain. It's like you are driving new vehicle and not thorough with its new functions"
CC: For the paid internship scheme in top companies, the Government is going to engage the private sector in skilling and employment. Will this initiative enhance employability, skill development and economic growth?
Most of the employment opportunities are in the private sector. An institute produces computer science engineers, they go to 10 different companies and in all 10 companies they must be productive from day one. Companies don’t want the engineers who require three to six months training. While they are studying, companies take them as interns and during this process they are able to check if the intern is going to be a good fit or not. For an intern, companies have to pay hardly ₹ 5000 to 10,000 as a sustenance allowance, which is nothing compared to an employee which maybe charging ₹ 40–50k per month. So, during the process of internship, companies will assess the intern, check their capabilities, innovation, sincerity and performance factors. They may give interns an offer, if they are a boon for the the industry. Some are retained and some are told to leave.
It’s better to know people upfront-it’s a boon for companies. Because, you know the employees you are taking and secondly, their capabilities are honed and trained for you. So this internship scheme is a very good thing and it has to happen mostly in the private sector. So, if a person takes an internship, he is interested and you are interested. If there is a match, take him, assess him and take it further. If the interest do not match then both sides can quit. But industries are always crying that they are not getting industry ready people, without attempting in doing their part adequately. The government is trying to be a catalyst in conveying to the companies that please do it. However, there is a statement post budget that they are not forcing the paid internship scheme. Government’s effort is only in promoting it as an advisory. So this internship scheme is not compulsory, the is government just nudging the industry, to do it for their own sake.
CC: But for this internship scheme they have tied up with top 200 companies, who they say, have agreed.
Some good practices will have to be driven from the top. If the top does, it percolates down to the others also, and they also follow the model. But they cannot force everyone. For example, I am starting an MSME, how can they enforce the paid internship scheme on me? I am not even able to stand on my own, what can they expect from me?
But in certain cases, some topnotch industries have also made a mess of internships. It has been observed that when lot of people try to come to them, through approach, pressure or whatever requests and requirements, they make them sit in the class, ask them to come every day, learn something in the classroom and after a month, tell them go back with a certificate that they have done the internship. Unfortunately, they hardly do anything in terms of practical learning.
CC: There are doubts about the sanctity of the NEET exam that has arisen right now. Another example is the UPSC exam case. Can you reflect on this?
Obviously, UPSC cannot run after millions of students to check if the identity proofs they have submited is authentic or fake. Any of these schemes can go haywire, because of the sheer size, volume, capacity or numbers, we are handling in India. Also, these problems exists in India because of our mindset or maybe to some extent corruption—these challenges will be there in any large scale operations. You will see it in most such operations, where unexpected things will creep up and wrong things will happen.
"Education is required at all stages of our life and therefore whether it is a contact education or a non-contact education, whether it is offline or online, whether it is physical or non-physical, it doesn’t matter—education is education and therefore it should be promoted and it will be desired or required"
CC: It is said that today’s schools and colleges look like factories, teachers look like machines and students look like products. Are we going to see a transformation change in our education system? What role will our National Education Policy and agencies in education play to bring in the transformation?
Everything in education, every agency in education is supposed to mend these things. Role of NAAC or UGC, Board of Secondary Education, each one of them have a different role to play. When a die is casted over a period of 20 years in a certain way, let’s say in school education, obviously you can’t expect for some major corrections to happen immediately. One has to assess what, why, when, where and how it happens. Let’s not find out who has to do it, everyone has to do it. We are nothing but a reflection of the society. If the corrupt practices remain elsewhere, if wrong things happen elsewhere, the institutions are also bound to be affected. So whatever corrections are required as far as education is concerned will have to be holistic, societal and from within.
The benchmark of ISO is applied to industry, but it is also equally applicable to educational institutions. So there is an equivalence of industry in their definition. However, churning out numbers in terms of quality, value, outcomes, outputs, utility etc., will obviously take lot of time. The Indian education system, is around 50 to 60 years old, but the international names you compare them with are over 200 years old. So, obviously we have to give our education institutions the space and time to mature and to become better. There is no instantaneous way to reach the top. Of those who have reached the top fast, most of them are bound to fail. In my opinion, a gradual progression is the best way to success.
CC: Just as we opened India for foreign MNC companies to come here and start their businesses here. Can’t we do the same thing with foreign universities?
Already our government has outlined the plan, and the frameworks are being built, but the only difficulty is that in foreign countries education is for profit. So, if they invest in India, can we allow them to earn a profit, is a question to be pondered upon. And, if we allow foreign players to be profitable in India, then why not our own institutes also. So these are the fundamental questions to be answered. The second question possibly is, would the education that you receive in both foreign and Indian education brands yield the same things. Most of the Indians who go abroad for foreign education, fancy to get settled there and get the job opportunities there. Would the same outcome be available from here, is the question. If it’s not, why should I pay 10 times the fee to a foreign institution. Why not I try for IITs, IIMs, NITs and other such institutions. So, there are many questions which are bugging not only the institutions or the education providers, but also students and policymakers. These issues will be resolved over a period of time and reasonable answers will emerge naturally.