Take us through your education and career

Well, like most Malaysian Indians, I went to India to do my medicine, about 40 years ago. But in India, you guys are so brilliant that it was really tough to compete with you. To get a score of 99 per cent was way too difficult. Sadly that year I missed my entry into medical school by one or two points. So I started doing my B.Sc. in Chemistry from the University of Madras. Subsequently the next year I got into medical school but I didn’t opt for it as it would take seven years. So I did my Bachelors in Chemistry and tried my hands at being a chemist. However, I found it wasn’t an easy job being in the lab, doing quality testing and so on. Thereafter I decided to go and do a Masters in Social Work from the Madras School of Social Work. I was keen on pursuing Human Resource Management (HRM). I finished that...but somehow my heart was always in the industrial world so I went on to gain a qualification back in Malaysia in HRM. Later on, I went to Leicester University in UK to do a work psychology programme. Thereafter, I did a PhD from the California Coast University, USA. Then subsequently, I went to the Harvard Business School and University of Ballarat, Australia for my second PhD. I have always had this quest and desire to engage in lifelong learning because the more you learn, you realise how little you know. But if you ask me to define my career, I would say my career is largely in the world of Human Resources. But of course, entrepreneurship was always in my blood.

As an entrepreneur, as a CEO, how do you manage your employees?

Peter Drucker, the famous American management consultant, educator, and author always says, “It is difficult to manage people but not impossible.” That’s my conclusion. You’ve just got to be present, attentive, you got to listen with your eyes and ears open and engage your employees. Be a friend to them but at the same time, do not forget the ultimate purpose of why we are together. Sometimes, we get separated from some people and they go on and become great successes because they find something better. Sometimes we find people who enjoy working with us. As a CEO I believe that if you need a good night’s sleep, have the right people for your work. Again, in any organisation, trust and loyalty should be the rule than otherwise. Every business has to function with a social cause. Sometimes it is not about focussing on high potential alone, because you need to carry everyone along in the organisation. People are the heart and soul of your organisation. Many a times, the CEO is not worried about external factors...not about profitability or political stability but is highly worried about internal practises that they can control.

So how about people who jump jobs, despite a good work culture...Tell us about your experience.

Well, sometimes I did find people getting more money elsewhere and I say, “Ok, Please go ahead...Good luck.” See, you just can’t compete at that level. At the same time, what is not acceptable is that if someone is there at Rs 1 lakh and jumps for few more thousands in six months time. The problem is that we have created this menace in the society. Parents and companies have also added on to it. Sadly, we have a shortage of talent. So we poach talent from one company to the other without realising when salaries go up without the appropriate productivity gains, industry suffers. Sooner or later, people are going to be retrenched because you went up from Rs 1 lakh to Rs 3 lakh within a year and couldn’t perform, then you will be asked to go. So the key to me is that we should educate people...but unfortunately in today’s society people say you can grow only when you jump jobs, which is one of the fallacies and myths that prevail in companies. I have also seen people working in large corporations go out and create new corporations like Narayana Murthy and Nandan Nilekani who worked in Patni Computers went on to create Infosys.

I could have afforded a Mercedes 25 years ago but I never bought it then, I got it only when I turned 50 because that was the time I decided that I could genuinely afford it and I had earned it genuinely. So always ask the question, “Have you earned it?” Just like we focus on students and youngsters, we also need to focus on the industry. Talent management is about productivity, performance and of course making sure how employees have a good quality of life. Jim Collins once said, “Great vision without great people is irrelevant.” Similarly, people leave people, they do not leave the organisation. In my own practical experience I have seen that if you have the leadership presence, you can retain people because people just want to work with you.

"People leave people, they do not leave the organisation. In my own practical experience I have seen that if you have the leadership presence, you can retain people because people just want to work with you"

How do entrepreneurs start off, especially while dealing with issues like shortage of finances and people? How did you deal with it?

Look, life is not easy...success is not easy. I remember watching this movie and reading this life story of the earlier Mr. Ambani. If you see him, the gentleman was a nobody even when he was 70 years old. Like for instance, Narayan Murthy and Nandan Nilekani and other co-founders were only employees once upon a time. They couldn’t find the money or funding then, but they went on A decade ago, I had not thought of making an acquisition worth $500 million, but once I did that, I felt confident that I could make a billion dollar acquisition. When I started off at the age of 19, my father was no more. From my father’s side, I had very little to go on, other than a family background and a track record. I had no money to start off. I started off with a mere $25 but with tremendous courage, I carried on. There are hundreds of moments in life when you feel so depressed, you wonder why things aren’t going well, but they are all compensated when you find success.

How are you as a boss to your employees?

Well, there are two sides to this. There are people who really support me, and there are people who criticise me. People who support me often say, “Hey you are a lovely boss. You are so trusting, engaging, so fantastic and likeable.” And there my critics who say, “My God, you are so nice that you don’t fire the fellow. You are so good that you actually don’t do this. And you are so indecisive when it comes to firing people.” So one of the things I recognise, which comes back from my own culture and tradition, is that I try to give people as many chances as possible. But there are things I take very seriously. I want people to respect one another. I want people to be as ethical as possible. There are few minimums that I insist upon. I like to empower people, I like people to learn on their job. I recognise their right to be someone like me. So if they want to go out for ten years and do something like me, that’s fine. I might sulk when they leave, but certainly I wish them well because I respect their right to do what they want to do.

When you started your journey, did you believe in things like astrology and luck?

My grandparents believed in astrology, auspicious times and such things, but I believe that the intersection of hard work and opportunity is luck. In fact, as per astrology, it was said that my father was fine, but he passed away the next month. There’s a chicken and egg story—once the chicken is out and it starts running, people think, “Wow, just look at it.” But if you think of it, there was a long process of the hatching of the egg involved. So that process was hard work. While luck may or may not be 100 per cent, sometimes it’s strategy, intuition. Sometimes you are at the right time, at the right place. You work very hard all your life and all of a sudden an opportunity comes your way, and while you are ready for it, you catch hold of it. Even though I don’t believe in astrology, I still will not stop people from following it. My wife is religious, she likes going to the temple because she gets peace of mind there. But I also tell her that at the end of the day, do what you have to because God is not going to come and do it for you. We have to do it. For me, I would like to feed ten poor people which will get me closer to God than going to the temple and do ten things more than the other person does. I think respect for humanity is more important.

"I have always had this quest and desire to engage in life-long learning because the more you learn, you realise how little you know. I strongly believe that the intersection of hard work and opportunity is luck"

What do you think of youngsters today who think making money is the most important thing, over pursuing their dreams?

I always tell young people—look, making money is secondary, but following your dreams is primary because when you follow your dreams, you will find that money will follow you. Today, it is not because I went after money, but because I had this life-long mission of helping people learn and perform which has helped me. Probably Mukesh Ambani today has a nice car and today for a young individual working in companies like Infosys or Wipro, it is not very difficult to afford a nice car. In fact, it is quite easy. But the question is, what is it that you want to be best at?

Tell us about your experience in choosing your dreams over money

When you love your work, that’s your line. Great work will only count when it’s meaningful work. Jim Collins, the famous American author and lecturer continuously asks, “What is it that you want to excel at?” People like Shahrukh Khan, Kamal Hassan find their joy in being the best at what they are. At one of the points of my career, I wanted to be one of the best trainers, one of the best HR officers. I wanted to be one of the best CEOs in my area of expertise in the learning business. I aimed that I wanted to be an entrepreneur and take my company public, which I did. I wanted to acquire a University, which I did. At one point, I remember I was sad that I couldn’t become a doctor, because in the first year I missed a seat by one-two points and in the second year my father passed away. But today I own two universities, where I employ hundreds of doctors working for me. So the key is-- what is it that you want? For me, I just wanted to help people to learn and perform. I wanted to provide access to education to as many people possible. In the process, of course, God has been kind. I’ve had a good life. But if money is the principle focus, then it defeats the very purpose of life.

As a trainer and mentor of many, how do you think we can shape the future generation?

Look, there are three stakeholders here—one, a youngster, second, your parents and third your teachers. Children become what they observe. So parents have to be great role models. If you want the kids to be ethical, then it is important for parents to be ethical too. If you want your kids to be polite, then it’s important that we be polite. If you want kids to respect one another, then it’s important that the parents respect one another. As teachers, we need to ensure that we empower future generations— we prepare future leaders. Steve Jobs rightly said, ‘The only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven’t found it yet, keep looking. Keep searching. Don’t settle.’ So just go and search for that one thing which makes you happy.

Tell us about your experience.

I remember, my mentors would always ask me “What is it that you want? Why is it that you want?” And I would be so angry and irritated because they would keep asking me these questions. Then I realised in my 40’s that it is important to look deep inside yourself. I would say some of us find our passion much earlier, while some of us find it late and some of us get lost, because of peer pressure.

What do you think of the peer pressure that most youngsters go through in today’s times?

Most people associate you with the brands you work for. Sometimes people come and ask—hey, are you working for Infosys, TCS, Wipro? That’s because people always identify you with these brands. There is tremendous peer pressure today. In a country like India where marriages are largely arranged, people keep asking if you are working with big names like Infosys, Wipro etc. I remember there was this guy who left our company saying he couldn’t find any alliance unless he worked with HCL, Tata or Wipro. The same thing happens in Singapore too. People ask you if you are working for Singapore Telecom or Singapore Airlines. So unfortunately there’s this peer pressure. To me, this is something we cannot run away from. It is part of life and society. As parents, teachers, mentors, we should guide youngsters. Like I said earlier, you just need to do what is politically right, which is making sure that governance is in place. Having said that, I would also say, keep looking, but at the same time maintain some balance, because you need a job to live the next day...but make sure whatever you do, you do it well. My teachers always taught me, “Always respect whatever you do...respect your profession.” The whole idea is that when you do that, you respect yourself.

In that case, how do you think one should grab opportunities?

I remember I had found this 19-year old guy who was working for India Cements, when we had started our software operations in Chennai. This young boy came for an interview with his father-trust me, it was a huge cultural shock then. His father was seated outside. After the interview, when we gave him the job, his father interviewed us. He was from one of the good schools, not the top schools. He came from a conservative family, but was a brilliant kid by any stretch of an imagination. In the next ten years, he grew to hold a leadership position. Well, everyone wants to go to IIT and IIM, and I don’t think that is wrong at all. People aspire to get into a good school but unfortunately the law of life always says that excellence is in a minority, and the average will always be a majority. So we are always going to be challenged, and therefore must only make sure that we get the right opportunity. When I look back, there were many defining moments and they were opportunities. In everybody’s lives there will be opportunities. The question is, how well we grab the opportunity. For example, Dr. (Col.) A. Balasubramanian, Founder and President of Sri Balaji Society is such a motivational personality. He does what he wants to, he is an opportunist. We want most of the kids to be inspired by him. However, not all kids are going to be like that. All five fingers are not the same. But every person is going to be tremendously good at something.

Take us through your future plans.

At the moment I am focussed on building universities in Malaysia and building our HR software and HR professional services. I am also focused on our next succession plan, a line which will take over from me. I have two sons and a daughter. My sons are studying. My nephew who has worked for various organisations like Accenture, has just come on board. I always like to believe that I am one of the most successful Indian business families where we separate family and professional management. I started my career as a trainer and today whatever speaking I do is because I think I just have an opportunity to inspire people. The purpose of my life is to help people learn and perform to achieve their full potential.

Will you raise capital from the market for acquisitions or do you have enough funds in your kitty?

We’ve always used a couple of options—I am a prudent investor. I never like to be over-geared. So we use a mix of internal funds, bit of borrowings because we are public listed and we do raise a bit of money. We had a private placement, we’ve had some borrowings, some internal funds. I strongly believe in planned growth; profitable but planned.

"The key is -- what is it that you want? For me, I just wanted to help people to learn and perform. I wanted to provide access to education to as many people possible"

When did you list your company?

We listed our company on the Malaysian Stock Exchange in 2006 and I acquired another listed company two years ago. Because we are a public listed company, I follow the stock market closely. Every time the market drops a cent, you know how many millions are involved. Our company is right now quoting at 40 cents.

How do you deal with the sudden fall and rise in the market?

I just think you need to look at the fundamentals, but unfortunately you’ve heard of the herd mentality, so everyone goes to one buy on one counter and others follow. That’s what Warren Buffet says in his principles of investing, “You buy when everybody sells...and you sell when everybody is buying.”

With so many hats on, how would you like to be remembered?

I always like to be remembered as a person who helped people. I make sure that hundreds and thousands of people earn because of me.